Studio Visits

It was in the middle of May that his show “Noticias de America” opened at Mendes Wood. It was an unusual, but very interesting gallery presentation and different from what I've seen so far in other galleries or museums in São Paulo. So I was happy to meet Paulo Nazareth on a sunny afternoon, a few hours before he was awarded the “Prêmio MASP Mercedes-Benz Price” at MASP- Museu de Arte de São Paulo for his fascinating body of work. “My english is left, do you know? It's not right english”, he said. That's how our interview started. It's like getting directions in a country where you don't really speak the language. And, there I found myself in that exact situation, being in Brazil and barely speaking Portuguese. However, we had a rich conversation, and I hope you enjoy reading it.


FR:Your latest show „Noticias de America“ (“News from the Americas”) at Mendes Wood displayed documented performances, social sculptures, drawings and biographical portraits from your journey of several thousand miles through more than 15 countries in the Americas. What intrigued you about traveling by foot, and what were you hoping to experience on this journey?

PN: Since I was born in 1977, walking became very important to me. I saw other people walking, and I wanted to walk too. It's important because If I can walk, I don't need a car. If a car brakes or runs out of gasoline on the road, I have to wait for help. When I'm just by foot, I don't need to wait. (...)
When I went to the USA, I could not imagine taking a flight and arriving in New York. I needed Latin America in my feet. I needed to experience its culture before arriving in the US. That was very important for me. For me South and North America are one land, one kind of men, and there are no borders. Borders are political, not social. While I was traveling throughout the Americas, I experienced several problems. But these problems were often related to economical issues. If I would have money, I could cross the border with ease.
I had problems with the brazilian police. My face and my hair looked weird to them. My passport was not enough, they wanted to see my ID-card. (...) When I arrived at the Border to Honduras, I wore flip-flops and had dust on my feet. The police claimed that I was not Brazilian since I didn't wear any proper shoes. (…) And then I had problems in Mexico. There is a lot of corruption. The police thought it was strange that I wanted to take a boat to Cuba. I had to go with them, and they asked me many questions about the money and my friends house that I was supposed to stay at. It was my luck that I had a picture of Saint-Judas in my pocket. After Guadalupe which is the most important Saint of Mexico, Saint-Judas is the second Saint of Mexico. The police said it's okay to cross the border when having a depiction of the Saint with you.



FR: Your show had a very documentary character and showed many found objects throughout the Americas. How did you arrange your memories of the journey? Was there any conceptual referencing to social or economic tensions in South America while linking certain objects?

PN: In the exhibition everything is together and there are many similarities. (…) The displayed objects are all fragments of my journey. (…) Everything is linked to each other, maybe like a net.
(he places several objects on the table at which we are siting) For instance: Here is the Image of Saint-Judas and a little package of salt. This is just salt, but it's also a lucky charm since I associate something sacred to it. So there is a link and an existing dialogue between both items since there is something sacred to both of them.
I also think that the collective memory of South America is not linear. Although there are many differences, things are very related. Lets say: Brazil is one thing, Argentina, Paraguay, etc. are another thing, but it's all South America. For instance: The guarani people, an indigenous people from South America live in Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay and Brazil. For them it's one land, but after the colonization borders were created by politicians. It became a problem to cross the borders, and for the Guarani people it was impossible to walk to their relatives as they were used to before.

FR: In your interactive installation “Banana Market” presented at Art Basel-Miami, you signed Bananas and sold them for 10 Bucks each. What did you want to achieve with this gesture?

PN: I wanted to tell something about the market and the business (Art business, War business, Mafia, etc.) (...) Its about the history of Latin America, about the dictatorship that started in Guatemala and affected many other countries. It started with The United Fruit Company, the banana business that flourished in the early and mid-20th century. Its a period of social revolution, agrarian reforms and disappropriation. I wanted to say something about the big business of The United Fruit Company and the history of land monopoly. The bananas that I sold are a symbol for this part of history and it's monopoly powers.


FR:Your work has a very specific formal quality. What is your relation to material, its value and its aesthetics?

PN: I work with good materials that I find in the land, in the streets. Because why should I buy a piece of plastic when I meet it in the land? It's good and guaranteed. The producer of an artifact assures me a guaranty of 100 or 1000 years before it degrades. (...) Instead of making something myself which has no guaranty, I prefer working with materials that the world offers me. My relation to material is by guaranty.

FR: You live and work in a Favela near Belo Horizonte. Can you tell me something about your personal background?

PN: Originally, I'm from Governador Valadares, a city that I really like. (…) Today I live in Santa Luzia – Palmital, a favela near Belo Horizonte. There is an other culture. A culture of improvisation in daily life. So my language is also related to improvisation.

FR: In your work you often deal with subjects such as race, ideology, class struggle, etc. What interests you about exploring these themes in an artistic context and where did that interest come from?

PN: It's related to my own family history and their memories. But more than that, it's also related to the memory of Brazil which is very dark. The history of the slave memory, the memories of the dictatorial times, etc. (...) My work is about that mix and meeting of many people in Brazil. Religion is mixed, race is mixed and even philosophy is mixed. There are many layers. (…) I think it's about the desire of that mixed cultural memory. We brazilians don't know where we're from. We have indigenous and black roots. Where are we from? From Africa, but Africa is big. Many people, cultures and distinguished Orishas. When the black people arrived in Brazil, these diverse african cultures and religions were mixed. (...)

FR: Your performances and works have a social character, are very participatory and related to public space. Do you feel a kind of responsibility towards society while doing your work, and has that also to do with your personal background?

PN: I want the art object not to be finished in the gallery or an art collection, it belongs to many people. There is an ongoing dialogue between the art object and the viewer. Wherever you see the object, if it's in the internet, a magazine, a newspaper, a museum etc. it's also yours. The object creates a dialogue which is very important. (…) It's like a cooperation. You have one window, I have another. When you see the object, there is an interaction between your and my history. The work functions as a sort of meeting point.

FR: In a press release I read that you embody the idea of the artist as a sort of connector or performative decoder. How do you relate to this idea or approach?

PN: I want to live this and stay with people. For me being an artist is like any other job. A taxi driver is also a connector, but he's not always aware of that. I don't think so much about the tradition of performance in art, but more about its condition in life. I want to open up this dialogue between art and life. (...)
Many people, many windows...

What triggers two artists to leave Sao Paulo and move to the Amazon Rainforest? I wanted to find out and visited Thiago and Simone in the middle of the jungle. After a long journey by plane, bus and boat, I arrived in Tupana about 200 km south-west of Manaus. There are approximately 30 indigenous families living along the riverside. It was a life-changing experience to be surrounded by endless trees, water, beautiful animals and the daily life of the Tupana community. I hope that the following interview will give a glimpse of the intriguing project „Casa do Rio“ runned by both artists and shows why their contribution to the community of Tupana can be understood as part of their artistic practice.



FR: You are both artists who studied Theatre and Performance in Sao Paulo and moved a few years ago to Tupana, Amazon. When did you have the idea to come here? What made you decide to live and work in this remote area?

TCA: We arrived at a different times. I came in 2009 as part of a project that I was about to do in Sao Paulo. When I came to visit Tupana, I fell in love with the place, and I decided that this is the place where I would like to live. At the same time I wasn't satisfied living in Sao Paulo. While I was trying to find my own artistic identity, I couldn't fit myself inside the patterns of the art world. Relating to this me and Diogo, a friend of mine decided to build a place where we could live and be - as artists, as people.

FR: And how was it for you Simone? You came later.

SD: The idea of coming here occurred to me during an exchange project between two universities in Germany where Thiago, Diogo and I were invited to do performances with a group of students. We all knew each other from our studies in Sao Paulo. During a dinner we were talking about the experiences of building a house in the Amazon and how interesting it could be to collaborate with these students as a performance group in this place.
At that time I was living in Berlin for four years and we decided to gather six months later for the project in the Amazon. When I arrived in Tupana in the beginning of 2011, I had the idea to stay for a short amount of time, but I passed much more time then I expected. (…) Now I'm in my second year.



FR: You set up an artist residency called „Casa do Rio“ and invite international artists to stay and work here for a certain amount of time. What interests you about creating a place to develop ideas and artworks in the jungle far away from any art network, museums, galleries, etc.?

TCA: (…) I'd like people and guests of Casa do Rio to experience the extreme environment, the totally different culture and the people that live here. There is something that can come out of this meeting between people that stay in our house, the inhabitants of Tupana and us. In the beginning, after the house was finished, everything was concentrated here. It became a meeting place rather than a place where you just live and eat. The meaning of a house grew so much and developed into a house that's going to be built together. (…)
Besides actual works than can be created over here, I'm specifically interested in the relation that one can create and the unique experience you have here. For me it's important to share this with artists that are open to a process-orientated way of working.

FR: While I was here, I often heard you talk about the importance of exchange. What interests you in particular about this exchange, and what kind of artists do you invite for the residency in regard to that?

TCA: What interests us is an intense exchange between us, the artists that come to visit and the community (…)I was always looking for the subjectivness of art. You can experience that in a single artwork or between relationships. For instance: when you share a space and stay together for most of the time, sleep in the same room, cook together, etc. this subjectivness can transform you as an artist and as a person. That's what I was looking for and wanted to achieve with Casa do Rio.

SD: It can not only transform you, but also the people of Tupana. This exchange between us and the visiting artists made them think of their abilities. They know a lot about materials, nature or have specific ways to make tools or other objects. Since they live far away from town, they are excluded from society. (…) Handicrafts are just part of their daily life and do not mean anything special to them. I think it's interesting to exchange their technology and put value in the simple things they do. Nowadays their self-esteem has grown a lot and they are more aware of their skills. Visiting artists or other visitors often ask to show them how to make certain things.

FR: How does the environment affect your own artistic work. Could you describe the difference between working here and Sao Paulo?

SD: While I was living in Sao Paulo, I was working a lot with theatre, performance and dance. Here I think more about videos or writing. The landscape and the sounds are so strong that it sometimes feel like being in a movie. (...)In general it's often a question or the urgency of a situation that moves me to do and make something. (…) Here in Tupana I took the position of a teacher and that's a very new situation for me.

TCA: When I was in Sao Paulo, I always tried to do things that somehow could be seen or recognized. Since I came here to Tupana, I've been experiencing a lot of differences. Our first work was related to Architecture. We had to built a house although we had no clue about wood and construction. After finishing the house, a new project started. I call it the social sculpture. The people of Tupana started to visit us more and more. From that we learned their needs and then we said: Lets work with that! That means: becoming a teacher, an active member of the community and recently being active with political work.

FR: Do you think that this attitude is related to you being a performer and not something else, e.g a sculptor?

TCA: Yes, totally I think. Even during our studies at the university we had this approach. We often had to deal with unusual or quite new situations. (…) I think this openness comes from the performance.


FR: During my stay I noticed that the community of Tupana plays an important role in your daily life, e.g. you initiated or squatted the first school in this area. What exactly interests you about the interaction with the people of Tupana and do you also see that as part of your artistic practice?

TCA: Yes, it's like taking mud on your hands and being able to make something out of it. (...) Once you start working with them, you see how different things become and you don't want to stop. For instance, the meeting place in Tupana was totally abandoned before. Now they start working on it and review the sense of community.

SD: In the beginning, when we decided to squat the first school, I realized that this would be a huge responsibility. It's beautiful to see how fast they learn and how much they improve themselves. (...) For me it's more about creating a perspective or a curiosity for things when I teach the young people.

FR: In the beginning of the interview you claimed that the self-esteem of the Tupana community grows while artists or visitors show great respect for their handicrafts. Can you give me a practical example of this exchange and what resulted out of this collaboration?

SD: As I said before, the exchange between us, the artists and the community, made them think of their abilities. Thiago and I started to built a bridge. One artist named Enrique, from Spain, was very eager to get in touch with the people. He visited them a lot and learned some of their traditional handicrafts, their ideas and ways of living. Even nowadays, they still ask us when he comes back.
For example Mutuka, our neighbour boy, who started showing us how to make kanus, pedals or bow and arrow. Or Branca, the lady who makes beautiful baskets out of palm tree leaves. (…)
The close connection to the community was even for me a big change. In the city, it's so comfortable to live your life. You forget how much you can actually make or achieve in daily life and how strong one can be. This exchange shows you how big your limit is, and you realize a lot about yourself. (...)


TCA: There are two important issues that I can relate to this question. The first one is autonomy. Once you realise that most of the things you need are in your backyard, you don't depend that much on money anymore. The consume system and the paranoia of it in our world become quite irrelevant. I don't know if freedom is the right word, but you can make other choices. The other issue is related to our relation to nature. When nature is so close, it changes your perception and feeling for waste. For example, if I pollute the water, I cannot drink the water, because there is no water treatment here.

FR: Are there any plans and things you hope to achieve in the near or long distant future?

TCA: It's totally a work in progress. It's amazing how fast things are changing here. (…)I'm looking forward to what will come.

SD: When I started teaching this year, my goal was and is to teach the children how to read and write. I hope to achieve this until the end of the year. Later I can pass it on to someone else so I can focus more on the general work with the community.